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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Well, the Freeholder expressed great concern that they hadnt been informed of the problem, (hardly surprising given that the Property Managers would not pass any complaint on). They have now requested copies of emails between me and the Property Managers, (although these have now been passed on along with my noise diary)....... they also asked my Solicitor to confirm that I am prepared to go to court and incur  costs of "between £15k-20K", which my solicitor has advised are just scare tactics.

Am keeping fingers crossed - things HAVE to improve.

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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

m_j wrote:

How I symphasise with all the people that are living in semi detached properties or flats and next to neighbours that have laminate flooring. I have lived in my present address for 37 years and have been very happy until my new neighbours moved in 15 months ago. They placed laminate flooring in every room.
They have 5 children, 3 of which have ADHD and the noise they make is horrendous. I have to go out every day to escape the continual banging of doors, cupboards and the children running all over the house. They also seem to push furniture around several times throughout the day and the noise that this makes, makes me jump.
The noise starts often as early as 5.45 am and continues up until midnight. I have mentioned to them several times about the noise and they just look at me blankly.
Their children seem to be able to sleep through this noise as they must be used to it, but unfortunately their parents don’t know the meaning of consideration and thoughtfulness.
The women’s mouth can be heard in my lounge and the F word is a common part of her vocabulary. My health is now suffering so much that I am having to move as there is no escape from the noise. I spoke to the council who couldn’t seem less interested and advised it’s a minor situation.
The noise at Christmas was particularly bad and other neighbours that came round couldn’t believe the noise I have to put up with. I cant am now having to move when I was looking forward to living out my retirement in my house.

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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

How I have sympathy for you,  I have had a very similar problem, I had a beautiful flat with a landscaped garden on a fairly modern respectable Barratts estate in Derbyshire, years were spent updating and improving my property, we even had a conservatory, which months of hard work to erect.  I finally felt secure and positive about my life, until a family of 5 moved into the flat directly above me and my 10 yr old daughter who lived below in our small  there s was the same size, I didn't see this as a problem was glad the previous owner had moved out as she had had an ectopic pregnancy  d given me months of false accusations that I was noisy, and that  was always shouting at my Daughter and to be totally honest I hardly ever raise my voice, there were tears as I had had a few bad years and couldn't be bothered to bitch back.  Anyway back to the new inconsiderate lot from the moment they visited, her boyfriend owned the flat but was away lorry driving all week, I tactfully mentioned the fact that (te noise was awful stamping banging running feet above my head, sounding the ceiling would come through) I ed her if she was moving in, cause tthey seemed to be moving black bin bags cars were pulling up delivering more bags and that the noise they were making was awful, but didn t want to argue about it since I still felt tender from the previous owners, and she said that they were , my heart sunk  I felt hot, how much more could I take, but I had hope that It was just a stage, and my home would be my home how I had wanted it to be for the last 2or 3 yrs, but the noise just got worse, swearing at her children last thing at night 11-12pm, and first thing in the morning stomping feet, swearing crying children it drove me to desperate measures, either I would have a nervous breakdown, or have to leave my lovely flat, i  felt it wasn't fair on my daughter it was turning me into a nervous wreck, trying all the time to get out of the house when Iwas in at the end of my tether feeling completley sick at there ways , now in a fair world it should have been them who should have left and found something more suitable, but I had to leave what a shame, I couldn't have tolerated anymore, the funny thing was whenever I had visitors the noise seased, maybe I was just "listening out" terrible isn't it, now I live somewhere as quiete as the grave, the only noise I hear is next doors coffee machine, which is ok as it's not intrusive, the birds singing, my home feels like my home again, when I come home in the evening it's peaceful I can do what I like, nobody shouting, swearing around me, I wish I hadn't had to leave, but my health is so much better, no thankyou laminate fllooring in poorly sound insulated flats.  Hope you find a way to sort out those awful noisy neighbours Caroline

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

my next door neighbour keeps quails in their back garden & its really getting to me because of how noisy they are. i get woken up by them every morning at 4am & then have to listen to them all day long. the cage/shed that the quails are kept in is right close to our house & also my neighbour has 2 dogs that are all driving me berserk because they can see the quails but obviously cant get to them & the dogs keep jumping up at the fence to try to get them. also the dogs keep scratching at the wood of the cage/shed. i et on with my neighbour but i dont want to cause any ill feeling between us but im at the end of my tether now with the quails!!!! 
would appreciate any feed back from anyone  to let me know if i do have a right to complian to my neighbour.

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

It would depend, I think, on what sort of area you're living in, Loujen. I live in the countryside, surrounded by farmland, and people have complained about cockerals crowing, something that's part of the countryside. In the first instance, having a 'right to complain' shouldn't be the issue, but maybe a quiet and polite word with your neighbour is a good start. It does seem a very odd thing to do, though, to keep these birds in such close confinement.

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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

bearness wrote:

Interesting to read what goes on in so many areas. I've come on here, because my mother is suffering with noisy neighbours. She's 81, and has lived in her terraced house for well over 50 years. The family who recently moved out of next door, were noisy, foul-mouthed, and filthy. When they moved out, Mum breathed a sigh of relief, but the house was bought by a couple who have let it to relatives. The children constantly jump on the laminate flooring, and bang the radiators then, every other evening, the whole family congregates in there, and Mum can't even hear her TV.  She's having to go out, even in the worst weather, to avoid the noise during the day, but she can hardly do that at night. She tried to complain in a quiet way, but the wife understands very little English, and the owner just ignores Mum. She finally called in the police one night, and she's had the Environmental Officer call in. Her friends have suggested she moves into a wardened flat, but why should she when she's still a very mentally and physically active lady?

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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

I have just found this page, and its very helpful to read other comments about noisy neighbours and to know that others are in the same situation as my son and his wife.
THey live in Uk Im thousands of miles away, so our contact is e-mail and phone. They too have a family next door who moved in several years ago after the old lady living there passed away.
THe problem is the wife who sounds as though she may have mental health issues, she cleans constantly from 6.30am ie vacum cleaner on several times daily and she has laminate floors and little furniture, but also has music on from early until very late ( midnight or later)when her husband arrives home after working as a taxi driver.
The noise from the music is driving them crazy, sometimes the same record on all day over and over again, if they go into the garden to read or relax, she opens the bedroom windows and it blares out all over so there is no respite they sometimes cant listen to their tv.
She throws buckets of dirty water under their car so everytime they get into the car their feet are wet, she looks through their windows and stares and shouts at them, saying they are dirty, sounds like its all attention seeking, the council have written to her but this has done nothing and she laughed when she got the letter I really feel sorry for all of you in this situation cos I know my son is at breaking point as he cant sleep, they cant afford to move, sadly they cannot have children but at least they only have themselves to worry about and not tired little children.

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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Crash, bang, scrape, clatter clattter, thump thump. Just everyday noise according to our housing manager - this despite it being at midnight onwards, despite it being on laminate flooring which is not allowed (though the HA let her lay it)

We have been fighting this for a year, the scraping bashing etc are often accompanied by loud rowing or TV - often both.  We are told by the HA they are dropping the case because we do not have proof -  we have yet to manage to have the noise patrol attend as they are so busy!  we did have a recorder which only records 3 mins of noise at a time and as I said before it was then considered domestic.

Her son is going to come through our ceiling one time as he jumps from furtniture to floor so much, she cannot use her garden due to the weeds she has not cleared (they are now encroaching on our garden).

We have been told we are not to knock on her door to complain!!!! 

We went to the ombudsman and then it was decided she must remove the laminate but she is now refusing, just as she has refused to talk, go to mediation or keep the noise down.  It appears she has more rights than we do!

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Grrr Sue, I can feel your frustration from here.

It sounds like you're over halfway there and the only remaining hurdle is your neighbours stubbornness which is often the case with noisy neighbours in my experience.

Sue, may I ask a couple of questions not just for my sake but for clarity and for others' sake, if you wouldn't mind?  I'm sure your experience would be of value to people in similar situations.

Firstly, who is the Ombudsman?  Secondly, who was involved in the decision making to have the laminate flooring removed?  Thirdly, if you would be so kind, were there conditions attached (eg a date by which they must be removed?).  And finally, if the neighbour is aware of the decision and any possible consequences if she doesn't obey it?

Good luck Sue, try to be positive, it could all be over for you soon smile

Regards,

Compost

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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Having suffered over four months, (nothing compared to what some are going through), from upstairs neighbours, banging, stamping, television, shouting, and then topped off by two aggressive confrontations with the "man of the house", who made racist allegations, (the second one being on Sunday when I'd only been home from holiday three hours, and he waited until my fella had left), I have been advised by my solicitor and the Freeholder that the owner of the flat above has given her tenants notice to quit.  They have to be out by end of August.  Just seven more weeks.

In the interim she is placing rugs down on the floors and once they have moved out, the flooring is being taken up and replaced with carpet.  Both she and the Freeholder have apologised for the distress caused.  It may have cost me £200 for a solicitors letter, serious sleep deprivation and numerous panic attacks, but please persevere.  Freeholders draw up these leases for a reason.  They are to be upheld, and while I could have done without the legal fees, my solicitor's letter left nothing to chance, especially when read in conjunction with my noise diary and the fact that her previous tenants had not given me cause to complain.

So, they haven't gone yet.  But they ARE going.  They've spent the last couple of evenings looking at other places, (as he shouted at me Sunday evening)... almost tempted to help them pack.

Please, if you're a leaseholder, check your leases.  My Property Manager would not assist as it did not involve communal areas so I went, (through a solicitor), to the Freeholder.  They wrote the lease so I was adamant they could enforce it.  Which they have.    Noisy neighbours, (whatever they might think), do not have a god-given right to inflict their lives, (be it shouting, music, or noisy children), on the rest of us. 

Many thanks to Mac and Bearness in particular for their support.....

Leah / not-quite-so distressed now

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Leah, Im so pleased for you, and well-done for persevering! When the tenants have gone and new )hopefully) quieter ones move in, please come back and give us the good news in the 'successes' thread, would you, please?

If we've given you any help and support, it's a pleasure - we should be all here to support each other. Thanks to you, too, for the information about the solicitor's letter. My Mum may well be in that situation soon, although she's a home owner next door to a rented property. She also has been called a racist when she tried to complain. Here's to a peaceful future!

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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Compost wrote:

Grrr Sue, I can feel your frustration from here.

It sounds like you're over halfway there and the only remaining hurdle is your neighbours stubbornness which is often the case with noisy neighbours in my experience.

Sue, may I ask a couple of questions not just for my sake but for clarity and for others' sake, if you wouldn't mind?  I'm sure your experience would be of value to people in similar situations.

Firstly, who is the Ombudsman?  Secondly, who was involved in the decision making to have the laminate flooring removed?  Thirdly, if you would be so kind, were there conditions attached (eg a date by which they must be removed?).  And finally, if the neighbour is aware of the decision and any possible consequences if she doesn't obey it?

Good luck Sue, try to be positive, it could all be over for you soon smile

Regards,

Compost

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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Compost to reply

The local Housing Ombudsman is there if you have exhausted all the complaints to your housing manager, however, they can only reccommend solutions not impose them.  Councils do tend to do things when the Ombudsman gets in touch however.

It is the Local Authourity who have said the laminate must be removed however they set no time limit and the buck seems to be being passed between the council and the arms length housing organisation who manage the properties.  We have got our local councillor involved and he has written to see if he can get a date out of them. 

We are still hearing that it is 'domestic noise' which we do not dispute, we are complaining about the intrusiveness of it and the timing - I know she has to walk but surely not in high heels all the time and does she really need to move the furniture late every night?

She really does not care about any conditions, as far as she is concerned she can do what she wants, she has refused to a request for mediation, refused to talk, refused to get rid of the laminate, refused the offer of carpets, she even tellls the kids to jump more if we ask her to please keep the noise down!!!

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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

I sympathize with all those on this forum who are suffering because of noisy selfish neighbours.
I have a problem myself with children next door running in their hall on the wooden flooring : this creates thumping noises in my living room, driving me to despair.
I have used a soundproofing product called Phonewell in another room to very good effect : it has stopped all the speech coming through the wall, completely. Before I used it the noise was so bad it was as if they were in my room. I am now considering whether to move house or to use Phonewell again to cover the whole wall and chimney breast and also the floor in my living room. That will be no small task as the best way to use it is with resilient bars on battons screwed into the wall.
I shouldn't have to do this and alternate between feeling angry and feeling depairing. The problem with talking to your neighbour is that it can create very bad feeling- I have had experience of a dispute some years ago when I complained about a neighbour's dog barking. The ensuing dispute nearly gave me a nervous breakdown. Legal action is all very well when it's done at arm's length, not so good when it's your next door neighbour, who you have to deal with every day.

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Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

We have lived for twenty years in our present house and up until a polish family moved in did not suffer from noise.
They have installed laminate flooring throughout the house so we now hear everything chairs being dragged about, kids running around. On top of that constant DIY, rattling and banging of the fireplace, back boiler contiunally sounding like a kettle, we have tried asking them to keep the noise down, works for a while but it doesn't last. Tried complaining to council, only to be told to be very careful when asking them to be quite as it might construed as racist.

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Hi all,

For all those who have problems with laminate flooring you may be surprised to learn that the government was so concerned with laminate flooring that DEFRA commisioned a special report which was carried out by Napier University Edinburgh. The details can be found here:

DEFRA UK - http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/qua … ndices.pdf
DEFRA Scotland - http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Envir … 1/Laminate

Many councils and housing associations have special restrictions on laminate flooring. Examples are:

English council: http://www.islington.gov.uk/downloadabl … ooring.pdf

Scottish council:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3786843.stm

http://www.pkc.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/207B … minate.pdf

If you think you cant do anything you would be wrong. Ultimately it is down to you whether you take action or not. You should however be aware that a formal complaint may make your neighbours like you  a lot less.

Regards
Mac

Last edited by Mac99 (30 July 2010 22:19)

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

I can empathise with the feelings expressed in this thread. My neighbours have laminate floor in the living and - I suspect - throughout the whole house as it's like living next to a family of giants. There is constantly the sound of door slamming, and just inexplicable bangs, thuds and thunderings around at all time of the day and night. My sleep is seriously suffering, and I'm fed up with constantly feeling in a low mood because of sleep deprivation.

My house is privately owned but next door is council. As many people have experienced, the council are generally very unhelpful indeed and tend to treat the complainer as the problem. I suggested mediation and got it, but since then the noise has resumed and the mediation company seems to have gone out of operation. I have tried contacting them on several occasions but my calls are ignored and not answered, as are my emails.

What bothers me is that there are legal documents supposed to be preventing this but asking the council to enforce them is like asking for the world. I love my house but it's like the council have simply come along and s**t all over it because I can't enjoy it anymore.

Noise-proofing of the walls is just way out of my price range. If I had a spare 5k lying around, I'd move, and with the way the market's gone, I can't afford to move because there is minimal equity in the house. Besides, who'd buy a house with noisy neighbours?

I am at a total and utter loss as to what to do now.

The tenant themselves are reasonably nice people and have apparently good intentions, but the problem goes on day after day after day. We agreed that if I was being disturbed, I should tap on the walls, which I did this morning, but it just carried on. It's like waking up to London Zoo.

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

The thing is, Mac, unless it can be proved that neighbours are deliberately making extra noise on the laminate flooring, or the neighbours' landlord or landowner (ie the person you pay ground rent to) has banned laminate flooring, what can be done? Despite DEFRA's recommendations, it's not illegal to have such flooring, no matter how unpleasant it is for others. I imagine if you tried neighbours to court over it, you'd either have the solicitor or the judge, no matter how much sympathy they may have, saying "Sorry, nothing I can do!"

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Hi Mrs B,

I agree it would easier if the neighbours were council or private tenants simply because the tenancy agreements do not allow for laminate. This is simple if the tenancy agreement does not allow then it should be removed.

It may be more difficult with owner occupiers except there is a specific court case where the judge ruled that by changing any part of a house ie the flooring from the original carpeting to laminate flooring and resulting in a difference to the amenity and comfort of the neighbours can be classed as a nuisance.

I know of one case which is going through the courts at this moment in time where the occupier is taking the council to court for allowing laminate contrary to its own tenancy agreement. Just awaiting the result with interest as it will I think be deemed to be landmark decision.

BTW how is your mum?

Regards
Mac

Last edited by Mac99 (31 July 2010 19:47)

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

So, there is a precedent, then? Interesting!

My Mum's ok, except the neighbours (surprise, surprise) are gradually building up the noise again. I'm sure someone must be filling them in on what goes on with these noise cases. Still, I wrote a letter to the EHO and we'll see what he says about it. When Mum read it (I sent her a copy), she was impressed. Let's hope the EHO is, too, but he's probably seen and heard it all before.

Mum-in-law isn't good at all, but we weren't expecting her to be - physically very frail, but mentally, amazingly bright and quick. Bit of a long day, as the ferries were delayed in both directions. Portsmouth Navy Days closed the harbour for an hour - very helpful.  Lots of holidaymakers, with loads of kids (good news for the island economy!), on the late ferry - not a good time of year to have to travel. Still, needs must and all that!

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Hi Mrs B,

Ah Portsmouth, I worked for a firm a few years ago and we had a branch at Portsmouth. I came down and spent a few days and had trips out to Dorset (Corfe Castle, etc) as I am a massive Enid Blyton fan.

Specifically with reference to laminate flooring:

There is a case called "Leslie Arthur Stannard v ..... (Google Stannard v Pitcher). In this case the leaseholder removed carpeting that had been in placed when the leaseholder moved in. Hardwood flooring (tiles) were put down. The court held that it was a nuisance.

Where the character of the property was changed ie by removing carpets and laying carpets:

Many councils quote Baxter - but Baxter is a situation where the people moved in and the character of the flats were not changed. If you google and read there is one part by the judge that states about changes.

Some more law cases for you:

The first is the test of "common law nuisance" - usually expressed in terms of "unreasonable interference with another’s right to peaceful enjoyment". The standard to be applied is that of the "ordinary reasonable man", i.e. an objective test. Hall v Manchester Corporation (1915) 84 L.J. Ch 732 & Cunningham v Birmingham CC [1998] Env. L.R.1.

Sleeplessness can amount to injury to health for the purpose of the Act. Lewisham LBC v Fenner (1995) 248 ENDS Report 44. The fact that a Local Authority Environmental Health Officer does not possess a specific medical qualification is not a bar to the acceptance of his/her evidence that something is prejudicial to health O’Toole v Knowsley MBC [1999] E.H.L.R. 420

Hope thats enough for now.

Regards
Mac

Last edited by Mac99 (31 July 2010 21:30)

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

I have to say, after the last couple of days, I really sympathise with those who have to suffer noise from neighbours' laminate flooring. Our neighbours have had grandchildren staying with them, including a boy of around 3 or so. Well-behaved kids, but I was in our bedroom yesterday, and could hear the distant sound of fairly rapid thuds. Took me a while to realise that it was the little one next door - and we live in a detached bungalow! When the previous neighbours were there, they had two small children, but we never heard any thumping sounds, but I think this child was being allowed to run around the house, and the lounge has laminate flooring.  Goodness knows how or why the child was allowed to run around, as these places aren't exactly huge! Of course, the sound was quiet from where I was, but I can imagine how it would have sounded if the bungalows had been joined!

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

I am Right to buy leaseholder of a registered social landlord who is the freeholder/lessor of my groundfloor flat.
I have lived here for 22 years with a fully carpeted property above me via various tenants,but with my  most recent wonderful neighbours above me for 13 years,but they have recently moved to larger accomodation due to expanding family. The property above is the Housing associations tenanted property not leasehold/owner occupied.
Their New Tenants above me now,who are a very social Polish family, have however decided to install laminate flooring throughout.I have objected very strongly .The anomaly in my case is that my lease covenants that all leaseholder must SUBSTANTIALLY cover all floors with carpet except kitchen and bathroom,which must be cork or rubber or any other suitable material to prevent noise disturbance.And it  also covenants that the lessor must uphold this covenant (albeit at our expense.) But the tenancy agreements of the lessor's social housing tenants do not state anywhere that carpet is to be installed and the housing officer has told the new residents that they can install any floor covering that they wish.
Anyone any advice re this situation please?

Last edited by nottingham leaseholder (6 August 2010 23:51)

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Hi,

It may be that there is nothing in the leasehold or tenancy agreement about laminate flooring however this does not mean that the noise resulting from the installation of such is not a nuisance.

Your approach to deal with this problem should not be from lease/tenancy but from a nuisance point of view. If you have a look through this post there is a lot of information that is applicable in your case together with some case law.

Irrespective of whether the house is purchased or rented the same laws apply.

Hope that helps.

Regards
Mac

Re: Neighbour with laminate floors...

Hi Mac Thankyou
I am approaching this from a number of angles.
My Lease being one of them and perhaps the main one,as this sets out my rights and relationship with the lessor .
To not uniformally apply all these covenants to all residents causes my lease to be a misnomer as my relationship with the leaseholder and my own obligations to other flat occupiers become contradictory in terms.
My Lease also covenants that leaseholders shall not do anything which may be  or become a nusance or annoyance to the lessor or or the occupier of any other flat .Also That the lessor (the freeholder) can make extra reasonable regulations to govern all other flats on the estate but these must also be consisitent with our deed.so I am taking this up on these grounds also. I have pointed out the  Defra research done regarding the health and wellbeing of residents of downstairs flats when carpet is removed from an upstairs flat and replaced by a laminate floor.And am compiling evidence from correspondence to questions asked to various arms of the Housing association eg tenants arm and also Homeowner unit.
I have also been informed by The Association that they are in the process of updating its own tenancy agreements, and are at present  ascertaining whether they should ban laminate in flats,due to complaints regarding the same.They already have a written consent process and include laminate floor as an item of alteration to the property ,whereby written consent must be applied for and I am campaigning that affected residents whether leaseholder or rented, should be approached and included in the decision making when consent is applied for.
The problem in my case was that the New tenants were not made aware of this procedure on signing up for the property,and did not apply for consent until I pointed this out to them myself,by which time the laminate had been purchased.  The Housing officer who gave consent was a temp for the area and gave  verbal consent as they were not trained enough to know the procedures also.
Therefore  the new tenant was given verbal consent when signing up to the Tenancy.
The official housing officer for our estate has emailed me that had she have been the one to sign them up she would have discouraged laminate floor as she says she always does this for upstairs flat because of the noise nuisance  and the disturbance it can cause to downstairs residents.I am however now in the unfortunate position of  being both in dispute with the new tenants and also the Housing Association as they have marginalised leaseholders living in mixed tenure(which is about a third of us on the estate.)and on the grounds that it seems that Leaseholders must do as they say but tenants can do as they like.  I have informed them that as They have given the approval , not only will the tenants be liable for any Noise nuisance( I have informed the tenants of this)but that they too( the association) will  also be liable to me should I suffer from any disturbance to my previously quiet and peaceful enjoyment of my home as they have given outright approval for this installation,whether by mistake or otherwise.However due to these disputes I would have to disclose this to any potential purchaser should I wish to sell,which could ultimately devalue my asset.My aim is that I really want to get this matter resolved  and carry on living a peaceful life as previously.But only today my new tenants visitors have begun to make things deteriorate further by running up and down the staircase,I suspect in order to deliberately annoy us due to our complaint.
I have also contacted LEASE and my MP.
I will keep you posted in my endeavours.