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Topic: As a landlord of a flat that's had complaints...

I'm looking to try and get a handle on whether my new tenants are excessively noisy or my neighbour is merely a serial complainer. She has complained about four out of the five previous occupiers of the property, except me (I lived there 3 occupiers ago) and has recently taken a neighbour on her floor to council mediation for noise.

I'm a first time landlord, and have been a tenant in flats myself. There is nothing worse than a noisy neighbour interfering with your right to enjoy your property as a home. My neighbour downstairs has compained about my new tenant's footsteps causing her health problems (hives) and stress. Just to put it in context my tenant moved in one evening and the neighbour was on the phone (giving attitude to my retired parents!!) the next lunchtime. I responded immediately and heard first hand that apparently the toddler is very loud, running over the floor and there were sounds of lots of peole walking on the floor. Ignoring the audacity of people walking over a floor, is it unreasonable to give a new neighbour a week or so to get unpacked and settled in?!

I lived in the property for over a year prior to renting it out and never once received a complaint. The flat has laminate flooring (sorry for those who despise it, I'm not a fan of it in flats but the expense of carpetting prevented me from replacing it when I lived there - as there was no perceived noise issue!) and I had a large, thick rug down. It strikes me as odd that suddenly, within less than 24 hours of my new tenant moving in, there's a problem.

I've gone to the council, as a concerned landlord, to do noise level readings (if there's a legal problem I will deal with it) however short of making the toddler fly I'm at a loss. I'm also worried this could descend into a slanging match and my tenant will move out as the neighbour SCREAMS at her teenage daughters, effing and blinding, and plays the piano at 11/12 at night during the week. Aside from the obvious hypocrisy does anyone think that going to the council as a landlord is the right way to do it?! I am willing to deal with the consequences if something needs done about the noise. Any input from anyone who has noisy neighbours would be great!!

Thanks.

Re: As a landlord of a flat that's had complaints...

I moved about 6 months ago from a flat I had lived in happily for 5 years. i had to move as the people above me had a child, once he started walking, the noise on the laminate floor above was truly enough to drive anyone nuts.

A toddler running about, banging toys around etc, on laminate floor above is really loud below and unavoidable as well as it is not the kind of noise that can be blocked with earplugs...i know..i tried everything. I had to move out....

it is actually one of those noises that over time gets harder to deal with, as it can make you jump, i was often woken with a start at 5am, so you start living on tenterhooks, waiting for  the next bang crash that will shake you.

Last edited by insearchofpeace (14 March 2010 14:53)

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Re: As a landlord of a flat that's had complaints...

I have to agree with insearchofpeace we are currently in the same situation with BOTH our downstairs and upstairs neighbours.  One thing I would ask is if there is a provision in your lease saying that laminate flooring is not allowed?   It isn't allowed in our leases, yet I am amazed at the audacity of people in my block, who install it despite it being against the lease, what makes them think that the rules don't apply to them?

We had lived here happily for 3 years with a number of different tenants both above and below who were fine until the new upstairs neighbours moved in upstairs now we hear constant noise from them walking up and down and slamming doors at 5.30 am, yet as far as i'm aware there was no new flooring installed, and the previous tenant as far as i'm aware did not levitate around the flat, they must be doing something different, we have complained and are currently dealing with our management company.  Then 6 weeks ago, we got new people in the flat downstairs who have a toddler and have been noisy from the off.  I know for a fact that they have laminate flooring in the living room, as I saw the flat advertised as such when it was up for rent. So now all we can hear is the child running up and down and screaming constantly (which echos because of the laminate).  We have put up with this for 6 weeks now and after being woken up (I wear earplugs to sleep) by the child screaming for 20 minutes solid at 3 am again this morning I snapped and actually had the 'audacity' to bang on the floor, which is something I have never done before.  Today they had a huge gathering of Children who were running up and down on that flooring all day, so after 10 hours of this we spoke to the director of the block, who went down and had a word, apparently the first thing they mentioned was that we had banged on the floor last night! 

We were worried about being labelled serial complainers, but through our experience I know that it is possible to be unlucky enough to have a run of different neighbours who are selfish and inconsiderate, it does not mean that you are hypersensitive!  I would also like to point out that your neighbour  never complained about you, so it is possible to live in the flat you own without causing a nuisance to others.

There may also be noise insulation problems in the block, which I believe may be a contributing factor in our block.  However, although I sympathise that if that is the case it is not the fault of your tenants, but equally your neighbour also had the right to enjoy her property as a home, and they do need to modify their behaviour accordingly, but equally if her shouting and piano playing causes a nuisance then you need to make a complaint about her.

I do think part of the problem is that people do tend to forget that you cannot necessarily behave the same way in a flat as you would in a house and that you need to show consideration to others.  Dealing with noise from neighbours can be incredibly stressful and can cause health problems, just because you may think that a noise is 'reasonable'  it can affect someone else who may have a lower tolerance level, this does not necesarily mean they are being unreasonable.

Although I agree that calling after one day was a bit quick off the mark, if she had noise from previous neighbours she probably wanted to nip it in the bud before it began again.

Anyway sorry for the essay, but I thought i would put my point of view across.

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Re: As a landlord of a flat that's had complaints...

Im a council tenant and have noisy neighbours living upstairs in a privately owned flat...what makes it worse is that they are students and enjoy nothing more than to play loud music (mostly weekends but it's still no excuse) and have this bizarre habit of moving in the flat at night, why I dont know, and also when they move out they go also in the middle of the night....and dont care how much noise they make.

We've complained about this bunch for years now and all the landlord do is lie and say it wasn't them (even tho he doesn't live there himself) and they have even blamed their neighbours who live in the next flat along from them.

We are not serial complainers but we just want a peaceful life, Im a carer for my 95 year old gran and she gets woken up by that lot and they dont seem to care in the slightest, the council say that they need to be here to hear the noise, but it's hard to catch them out as they turn the music up for a while then turn it down after a few minutes....but no one seems to care about this sort of problem.

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Re: As a landlord of a flat that's had complaints...

Insearchofpeace I’m sorry to hear you had to move because of the noise, I hope your new home is more peaceful!

Crestfallen, there is no provision for laminate flooring in the lease and I’m looking into the Building Standards as the building is over 100 years old so flooring standards will be specified somewhere I hope! From experience I don’t remember hearing other neighbours either to the side or below me which indicates that noise insulation in general in the building may not be an issue. Something to explore though, thanks.

I appreciate that my neighbour has a right to enjoy her property as a home and my tenants have modified their behaviour to such an extent that they don’t wear shoes in the flat and the 2 yr old is now afraid to play with his toys in case he is told off. That to me is unfortunate and also impinging upon their right to enjoy their home. At what point should a compromise be reached? And who is to say what is fair to both parties? Also given the level of consideration shown to the neighbour by my tenant I would say that they have at least attempted to adjust their behaviour to flat life. My fear is that the neighbour hasn’t adjusted her expectations of noise-levels to flat life. This is where I’m worried the war will begin!

Can I ask how you have approached the people making the noise, both above and below you?

I appreciate that she may not be a serial complainer but given that I know her, I have to say in all matters she complains, moans or is otherwise given to vocal disproval. Not a friendship I miss!

Possibly part of the problem is that my new tenants have a different lifestyle than I do, i.e. the lady is a full time mum at home with a 2yr old (and 7/8yr old when not at school) whereas I was out at work Monday to Friday 9 to 5. My neighbour doesn’t work, never has as far as I know, as so will be in the flat to hear my tenant during the day.

I can thoroughly sympathise with wanting to nip any noise issues in the bud before they develop, but as a neighbour myself I would hope that any of my neighbours would have the maturity and show the respect to approach the noise-maker in the first instance instead of immediately phoning ‘mummy’ and ‘daddy’ to make it stop. Perhaps that’s unrealistic.

Do you have much provision in your building for dealing with noise issues (i.e. does going to your director work)?

It’s a quagmire of rights and responsibilities which doesn’t seem to have much legal backing either way. Well, so far anyway.

Nick, your neighbours sound charming!! The landlord sounds even worse. Just getting the rent every month is not the entirety of a landlord’s job, and so few landlords seem to realise this. Not that I’m saying I’m perfect, but if there’s a problem I’d like to try and fix it as I know I’d hate it if I had an upstairs landlord that lied and didn’t care about me living in misery.

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Re: As a landlord of a flat that's had complaints...

Hi FM

We originally approached the people upstairs about a month after they had moved in as initially we thought it was just moving in noises and thought it was only fair to give them a chance to settle.  After a month, the noise was getting worse, not better, so I decided to go upstairs and have a quiet chat.
Initially he was very apologetic and said that they'd try to make less noise but nothing changed.  The main problem that we were having was that we were being woken consistently between 4.30 and 5.30 every day with stomping around and slamming of doors (we both actually started to wear earplugs, so it's not like we hadn't tried to be more accomodating ourselves).  A few weeks later during one of their daytime weekend Karaoke parties, which were so loud that we couldn't hear our own TV above it, my husband thought that he would go up and have a word.  He spent ages knocking on the door until eventually they turned it down and came to the door, the first thing they said was 'look you can hear it's not that loud' to which my husband replied, 'you've just turned it down'.  I had also heard the volume go down, but this man denied that he had and was much more agressive than the one I had spoken to (there are 3 adults, 2 men and a woman).  When my husband said to him that he was waking us up every morning, his respose was, 'well I have to get up and be out at 6'.  He did agree however that he would try and be quieter, and for 2 weeks they were a little quieter.
However after those 2 weeks it began to escalate again, and it was clear that speaking to them only had limited effect, so we spoke to our flat's director who advised us that it was best if he put in a complaint on our behalf with the managing agents.  The letter went out to them and their landlord in december and so far they have taken no notice, only written a letter denying that they make noise, we then wrote to the managing agents again, who said that we needed to get witnesses to the noise, so everytime we have heard it, we have called the director who have acted as witnesses for us. the directors  have lived in the block for 13 years since it was first built and have never heard anything like it before!  I would also like to add that in other ways the people above have got a 'couldn't care less attitude'.  They dumped a car in one of the visitors spaces, it then didn't move for 3 months until the tax disc ran out.  Whenever they have visitors, they nearly always park in other peoples allocated parking spaces and there is no apology, just a surly shrug of the shoulders if anyone dares ask them to move.  I do wonder if it is clash of cultures, as they are fairly recent immigrants and I know that  the country they have come from has a more 'vibrant' culture than Britain.
With regards to the people below, they moved in 7 weeks ago and we had initially hoped that the noise was again just moving in noise.  However, the noise again was getting worse not better, initially we called the director as we wanted him to hear the noise himself and tell us if he thinks we're being hypersensitive and unreasonable, but he agreed that it was excessive.  We had put up with the noise from downstairs this long as we were wary of getting involved in the stress and bad feeling that comes from making another noise complaint.  The other day when the director came down again to hear the noise my husband and I were so angry that yet another weekend was being ruined, so he suggested that he go down and speak to them as we probably weren't in the right frame of mind, which he did then do. After they had moaned about us banging on the floor, they did agree to try and keep the noise down, that was on sunday, so I guess it's still too early days to tell if it's had any long term effect.

Would it be at all possible for you to purchase a few more rugs, if carpeting over isn't an option?  Our neighbour has laminate flooring and has 3 dogs.  She has put rugs all over the place and I know that noise isn't a problem for the people below her.

It does seem that your neighbour is a bit too oversensitive and as you say hasn't adjusted her expectations of noise levels to living in a flat, and also it seems that your tenants have made reasonable provision for things that are in their control, your neighbour must have noticed some drop in noise levels.  It is true that it could also be the different lifestyle that is part of the problem, I know that it is with ours.  During the week, I find that I don't get so pee'd off with the noise as i'm away from it whilst at work, but weekends are a nightmare.  The woman upstairs does not work and only leaves the flat in the company of her husband on a few weekends, therefore she is banging around up there all day every day.  On the one occasion that I have been unfortunate enough to be off work sick I actually went back to work before I was really well enough, as I couldn't take the noise anymore.  I am also finding that I don't want to take any annual leave if it means I'll be stuck in the flat during the day!

It is a quagmire and it is very hard to sort out who is in the right in these sort of situations. Generally it seems that our management company are pretty good, although it will be interesting to see whether they can actually DO anything or if it is all hot air.

I'm glad that you're taking your responsibilities seriously, the world could do with a few more landlords like you.  Perhaps if things do escalate it would be worth telling your neighbour that other people can actually hear the noise that she makes as well, and that playing a piano at 11 or 12 at night is not actually on.

Good luck!

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Re: As a landlord of a flat that's had complaints...

FM, you sound like a responsible landlord thankfully.

What glares out to me from your post is the laminate flooring.  I appreciate it's cheap, and as a landlord it's easy to keep clean between tenants who may or may not be clean themselves.

BUT my lovely neighbours upstairs began taking out their carpets a few years back and installing laminate - we now hear everything, and they are generally very quiet in their ways.  When their grandchild visits she's up 6am running about dropping toys singing and shouting, she's a lovely little girl but I'm glad she doesn't stay often...  Now they are selling up and the buyer has a toddler we have to face the fact it will be like that all the time.

Take it from me, it was much quieter with carpets.  Have you thought about cheap carpets?  You can get them steam cleaned between tenants and darker colours don't show the stains so much.  Just make sure you get a good quality soundproof underlay.  If it calms down neighbourly relations it might be the best investment you ever make.

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Re: As a landlord of a flat that's had complaints...

Crestfallen, just a thought - but have you thought about recording the noise when the karaoke starts up?  Either a video camera/sound recorder would do.

If they deny the noise level it's proof at least.